Am I of "Native Irish" Blood or I am of Norman Blood?
Since I last posted, I'm getting into something much deeper, than I expected.
That is, my Paternal Line (Y-DNA) has shone a light to mostly being of "Native Irish" descent, but I struggle to comprehend how deep this goes.
I have placed myself in a few DNA projects and finally seeing a trend, that doesn't seem to fit with what I know of. My surname is supposed to carry the story of the Norman Conquest of Ireland in 1169 AD. But interestingly, I do not show the Y-DNA Haplogroup to Normandy or any other earlier European/African DNA structure.
When you visit the Fitzgerald DNA project, it seems to list the Haplogroups in the the oldest origins (at the top) to the newest origins (at the bottom).
The top of the list shows of African descent (earliest ancestor) and at the bottom shows me. In the middle, you can see the human migration coming out of Africa, sprawling out to Middle Europe/Asia/Western Europe, then heads North to Norway or across the sea to England/Scotland then to Ireland.
The very bottom of this list, shows quite a few people that don't yet fully connect with the DNA Project (they have to wait/hope for someone to do a Y-DNA test and help them connect to a lineage in the project)
For some reason, I now fit in the last defined Haplogroup timeline of migration. Why?
I am in thought of this question and what it means. But is very apparent, that my lineage connects to ancient Munster-Ireland and it converges strongly with the Native Irish and some form of Scottish/Viking Ancestors.
Some Fitzgerald's were placed in Munster but left Munster and headed for Scotland (by the way of Wars or they hand no lands and they were displaced - etc etc)
Therefore, the Fitzgerald's of Munster can only be there, around 1169 AD or later. If my Y-DNA proves to predate this era, we most certainly have a Native Irish / Scottish or Viking somewhere in the mix.
I can see this connection, but I don't know which way to read it. Did the Scots come to Munster, or did my Ancestors go to Scotland?
Either way, the Davies-Caldwell names dominate my closest 67 Marker (5th Genetic distance)
The Bonham (English or Scottish?) name also dominates the 25 Marker with majority being exact matches on the 12 and 25 Markers. How interesting.
I've also learnt that the Irish O'Hearn name is still the only dominate name (111 Marker) in my Y-DNA.
This name carries quite a few name variant's - O'Hearne/Ahearn/Ahern/Ahren and all these seems to stem of the one family name Herron.
Interesting enough, I don't have any of these names in my Autsomal DNA, but I do have a few Herrod's - are they the same? Don't know, but they match pretty close.
From what I have learnt, the O'Hearn name was thought to be of the Dál gCais (or connected with Brian Boru / O'Brien), they connected to the Desmond Fitzgerald's with Lord Roche in wars.
This is as far as I have been able to establish any form of connection, however, there isn't enough evidence to support any "proven" link just yet, just it's a bit co-incidental at this stage.
It has made me step back a little and try and understand, how much of a "Fitzgerald really am I.
Based on the fact that there is very little Fitzgerald "Surname" involvement (on Autosomal and Y-DNA), we must bear in mind that we (most likely), descend off a Native Male who "adopted" the Fitzgerald surname.
On the upside, we do somewhat connect to a lot of people who mingled with the Fitzgerald's of Munster (O'Sullivan, McCarthy, Barry, Shea - etc). There is also a connection coming out of Limerick and has to do with the Collin's surname. As further testing has revealed that we descend off an offshoot of the Ancient "Collins/O'Donovan" families, could be classified under the Ui' Fidgenti dynasty, with a taint towards a Scottish (maybe Viking) male.
This postulates a hypothesis, that my direct Paternal line of Y-DNA, stops at a Female Fitzgerald and throws a thought that there is Native Irishman, or a Scottish / Viking person in the mix.
I'm guessing that if this is somewhat true, the Female married a lesser (?) Male family line and the Fitzgerald name carried over to the children. Or did indeed a Female Fitzgerald have children or grandchildren that re-entered the Fitzgerald line down a few generations (A daughter or children from any daughter of the Female Fitzgerald re-marrying a Male Fitzgerald)
This is where my DNA is messed up, it isn't clear yet, but the above hypothesis is based from family thoughts that there maybe a Female Fitzgerald as our ancestor.
If you research any of the known Fitzgerald lines, you will come across many different cross-overs of branches due to a marriage - (Desmond's-Kildare etc)
My Maternal ancestry has taught me very well in this area (1st cousins marrying 1st cousins, who's children marry direct cousins). Almost Ashkenazi like.
But the Y-DNA is quite clear on a Fitzgibbon name. About a handful of Fitzgibbon's, appear both on my kit and my Father's kit , with quite a bit of "closeness" (More than expected). But what is weird, is that various versions of the "Gibbon" name - (McGibbon/Giboney/etc), appear on both kits on the Autosomal DNA.
I am seeing a very distant connection via people using GEDMatch and they also connect to Fitzgerald people, but when I try to join the dots, it's very distant.
A recent update to the 111 marker @ 8th Genetic Distance, shows a strong trend to a Fitzgibbon lineage. This is showing quite the strong connection to, again Limerick (River Shannon area)
At the very least, are we a product of Rape (Wars / Plunder & Pillage)? Not ruling this out just yet.
Though in finishing, I'm trying to use a life story of a man called Robert Appleyard Fitzgerald. He was known as a "Geraldine" Fitzgerald from Limerick.
His life in Australia has a weird circumstantial connectivity to my initial Irish Fitzgerald immigrants.
Robert A Fitzgerald, landed in Sydney, Australia within a few days of my immigrants - Jan 1841. Both separate lineages of Fitzgerald's, became part of the same church at the same time (St.James - Sydney).
Both of them had Church ceremonies within a couple weeks of each other - Robert's daughter was married and my 3rd Great Grand Uncle - Robert Fitzgerald was baptised under the St. James Church.
Very interesting how close circumstances were, that the child's name was Robert - but no known sponsors came forward. A little too circumstantial to just drop.
The research continues.
I'll leave it there for now.
Since I last posted, I'm getting into something much deeper, than I expected.
That is, my Paternal Line (Y-DNA) has shone a light to mostly being of "Native Irish" descent, but I struggle to comprehend how deep this goes.
I have placed myself in a few DNA projects and finally seeing a trend, that doesn't seem to fit with what I know of. My surname is supposed to carry the story of the Norman Conquest of Ireland in 1169 AD. But interestingly, I do not show the Y-DNA Haplogroup to Normandy or any other earlier European/African DNA structure.
When you visit the Fitzgerald DNA project, it seems to list the Haplogroups in the the oldest origins (at the top) to the newest origins (at the bottom).
The top of the list shows of African descent (earliest ancestor) and at the bottom shows me. In the middle, you can see the human migration coming out of Africa, sprawling out to Middle Europe/Asia/Western Europe, then heads North to Norway or across the sea to England/Scotland then to Ireland.
The very bottom of this list, shows quite a few people that don't yet fully connect with the DNA Project (they have to wait/hope for someone to do a Y-DNA test and help them connect to a lineage in the project)
For some reason, I now fit in the last defined Haplogroup timeline of migration. Why?
I am in thought of this question and what it means. But is very apparent, that my lineage connects to ancient Munster-Ireland and it converges strongly with the Native Irish and some form of Scottish/Viking Ancestors.
Some Fitzgerald's were placed in Munster but left Munster and headed for Scotland (by the way of Wars or they hand no lands and they were displaced - etc etc)
Therefore, the Fitzgerald's of Munster can only be there, around 1169 AD or later. If my Y-DNA proves to predate this era, we most certainly have a Native Irish / Scottish or Viking somewhere in the mix.
I can see this connection, but I don't know which way to read it. Did the Scots come to Munster, or did my Ancestors go to Scotland?
Either way, the Davies-Caldwell names dominate my closest 67 Marker (5th Genetic distance)
The Bonham (English or Scottish?) name also dominates the 25 Marker with majority being exact matches on the 12 and 25 Markers. How interesting.
I've also learnt that the Irish O'Hearn name is still the only dominate name (111 Marker) in my Y-DNA.
This name carries quite a few name variant's - O'Hearne/Ahearn/Ahern/Ahren and all these seems to stem of the one family name Herron.
Interesting enough, I don't have any of these names in my Autsomal DNA, but I do have a few Herrod's - are they the same? Don't know, but they match pretty close.
From what I have learnt, the O'Hearn name was thought to be of the Dál gCais (or connected with Brian Boru / O'Brien), they connected to the Desmond Fitzgerald's with Lord Roche in wars.
This is as far as I have been able to establish any form of connection, however, there isn't enough evidence to support any "proven" link just yet, just it's a bit co-incidental at this stage.
It has made me step back a little and try and understand, how much of a "Fitzgerald really am I.
Based on the fact that there is very little Fitzgerald "Surname" involvement (on Autosomal and Y-DNA), we must bear in mind that we (most likely), descend off a Native Male who "adopted" the Fitzgerald surname.
On the upside, we do somewhat connect to a lot of people who mingled with the Fitzgerald's of Munster (O'Sullivan, McCarthy, Barry, Shea - etc). There is also a connection coming out of Limerick and has to do with the Collin's surname. As further testing has revealed that we descend off an offshoot of the Ancient "Collins/O'Donovan" families, could be classified under the Ui' Fidgenti dynasty, with a taint towards a Scottish (maybe Viking) male.
This postulates a hypothesis, that my direct Paternal line of Y-DNA, stops at a Female Fitzgerald and throws a thought that there is Native Irishman, or a Scottish / Viking person in the mix.
I'm guessing that if this is somewhat true, the Female married a lesser (?) Male family line and the Fitzgerald name carried over to the children. Or did indeed a Female Fitzgerald have children or grandchildren that re-entered the Fitzgerald line down a few generations (A daughter or children from any daughter of the Female Fitzgerald re-marrying a Male Fitzgerald)
This is where my DNA is messed up, it isn't clear yet, but the above hypothesis is based from family thoughts that there maybe a Female Fitzgerald as our ancestor.
If you research any of the known Fitzgerald lines, you will come across many different cross-overs of branches due to a marriage - (Desmond's-Kildare etc)
My Maternal ancestry has taught me very well in this area (1st cousins marrying 1st cousins, who's children marry direct cousins). Almost Ashkenazi like.
But the Y-DNA is quite clear on a Fitzgibbon name. About a handful of Fitzgibbon's, appear both on my kit and my Father's kit , with quite a bit of "closeness" (More than expected). But what is weird, is that various versions of the "Gibbon" name - (McGibbon/Giboney/etc), appear on both kits on the Autosomal DNA.
I am seeing a very distant connection via people using GEDMatch and they also connect to Fitzgerald people, but when I try to join the dots, it's very distant.
A recent update to the 111 marker @ 8th Genetic Distance, shows a strong trend to a Fitzgibbon lineage. This is showing quite the strong connection to, again Limerick (River Shannon area)
At the very least, are we a product of Rape (Wars / Plunder & Pillage)? Not ruling this out just yet.
Though in finishing, I'm trying to use a life story of a man called Robert Appleyard Fitzgerald. He was known as a "Geraldine" Fitzgerald from Limerick.
His life in Australia has a weird circumstantial connectivity to my initial Irish Fitzgerald immigrants.
Robert A Fitzgerald, landed in Sydney, Australia within a few days of my immigrants - Jan 1841. Both separate lineages of Fitzgerald's, became part of the same church at the same time (St.James - Sydney).
Both of them had Church ceremonies within a couple weeks of each other - Robert's daughter was married and my 3rd Great Grand Uncle - Robert Fitzgerald was baptised under the St. James Church.
Very interesting how close circumstances were, that the child's name was Robert - but no known sponsors came forward. A little too circumstantial to just drop.
The research continues.
I'll leave it there for now.
Robert Appleyard FitzGerald was the son of William FitzGerald and his wife Ellen Appleyard the daughter of John Appleyard from Corbally Co Limerick
ReplyDeleteThanks Aoife. Still haven't found where we fit to Robert Appleyard, but a few decades later, my line moved to Balmain, Sydney. Just a few hundred metres away from a Co. Kerry line of Fitzgerald's (Robert D. Fitzgerald - Botanist/Surveyor and a Poet). My Thomas Fitzgerald, died in 1859 and his son, became a clerk of a Wine Merchant company - Curicer & Adet (at the age of 16-17). I had a theory that, did Robert Appleyard involve himself with my line to help the young son, get a job?
ReplyDeleteThe family was left with a Widow and 4 kids to support.