37. Culture II - Australian Blacksmith with a great family folklore story to Bushranger - Ned Kelly.

Culture (Part II) - Flow on effect of a 1st Gen Australian and a plausible paternal family folklore story to Bushranger - Edward "Ned" Kelly.

Part of this blog story, came about an afterthought, from the last blog that I did about Culture. It stirred a few thoughts with a family folklore story to Ned Kelly and his ways of life. I wanted to add this supplemental blog, to show a lot of things with Irish Culture still stayed on, even after the Family had left Ireland.

The Culture part of this blog, reverts to a 1st Gen Australian - of Irish Parents, who became and was an Outlaw (Bushranger) in and around Victoria and New South Wales during the late 1870's.

His name was Edward "Ned" Kelly. It is now a brand name, that associates itself with being Australian, a bit rough around the edges and of being above the law. But we also see in Ned's ways, this weird standoffish way that stands up to English - Australian Law. He feels that he (and his Kelly Family), is being persecuted for being of Irish Heritage, by a tryannical English Law system- even at 1/2 a world away from his parents homeland.

• Born in 1855, in a small town called Beveridge, Victoria.
• Beveridge is located 37 Km's North of Melbourne.
• Was the eldest son to John "Red" Kelly and Ellen Quinn (3 sons and 5 daughters)
  The Kelly's were from around Moyglass, Co Tipperary, Ireland, when John Kelly was convicted for stealing 2 pigs - he got 7 years Transportation to Australia.
• His Father died when he was around 11 years old. Leaving a widow with children, to fend for themselves
• They then moved to just south of Glenrowan, Victoria. It was here, where the Bushranger in Ned, was formed
• 1869 is where Ned first got in trouble with the law, where he ruffled up a Chineseman, but the charge was later dropped. The Chineseman's name was a rather interesting  "Ah Fook".
• Was later convicted of various offences, but later on, went to prison in dealing with stolen property (Horses)
• The family was well known for dealing in stolen horses and the like, but they also had felt that they received a lot of pressure from the Police (persecution wise) around this time. 
• April 1878, changed a lot of the Kelly's life, when Troopper FitzPatrick went to the Kelly's house and demanded for Dan Kelly, so he could arrest him. Much conjecture was about the story from FitzPatrick, as it was also loosely based on Ned trying to shoot him, where there wasn't any solid proof that he was. The Kelly's and family associates didn't give up Dan (who subsequently went into hiding) and the Kelly family felt the wrath of the law, jailing Kelly's mother and associates
• From this point forward, the Police went looking for Dan and Ned, putting out Wanted/Reward notices for information to apphresion of these 2 fellows.
• A few months later in October 1878, Ned and Dan came across a Police Camp at Stringybark Creek (about 26 KM's North of Mansfield, Victoria). There were 4 Policemen in this camp. This camp, was in search of these 2 Kelly boys. 2 Policemen went out from the camp, Ned and Dan suprised the other 2 Policemen in the camp, killing one and the other surrended. The other 2 came back to camp and a shootout ensued. These 2 Poliemen were shot (because they didn't surrender to the Kelly's). 1 was killed straight away and the other was injured, but Ned later shot him again, to put him out of his misery.
  The Policeman that surrended, escaped and went in search of others to alert about this incident.
• Just a short time after this, Ned and Dan's "Outlaw" status was turned up a notch, when they were posted for their capture - "Dead or Alive".
• In December 1878, the Kelly's and their associates, robbed a lot of money and gold, from the Town of Euroa.
• After this Eurora robbery, the Kelly Gang headed up to Jerilderie, NSW for one of the most famous robbery's of all. But it wasn't so much about the robbery, it spawned another incident that is wildly talked about, where Ned comes to a point and explains or moreso, justify his actions of being an Outlaw and that they are of resultant action against him and his family by the English-Australian Law and the corrupt Police.
  (It is known as "The Jerilderie Letter" - and in his own way of words, of a political speech and to justify his actions against the Police, the Law and the Government). 
• It was written on page 322 of Bill Wannan's 1973 edition of "Australian Folklore - A dictionary of Lore, Ledgends and popular Allusions" about the Kelly Gang. It depicted quite a sentence that struck a chord to understand why Ned "was the way he was". It depicted Ned as "an odd mixture of Irish Nationalism and Australian Republicanism". So how does an Australian born person (who has never set foot in Ireland), have such values to Irish Nationalism? I believe the only way that this could have been interpreted, is that Ned learnt the Irish ways off his Mother and all the associates of the Family, that were orginally from Ireland - and that may have had dealings with the English Government and or being convicts themselves.
  
  This is part of "Culture" that I refer to, that shapes a person. And it also assists the theory, that the 1st Gen born in a new country, has more of a chance to becoming a radical than the Parents - who wanted a fresh start. (Relates to my previous blog post about what happened in Australia post - 1916 Easter Uprising in Ireland) 

This is where, a family folklore story, that is documented takes hold. And centres directly around the weeks before and after of the 1879 Jerilderie Robbery.

What I am commenting here is information collated from various sources as this is not a new story that has developed. I am simply collating information together, and put in a 2016 fashion, as this information had developed around the 1950's till the late 1970's. I am using technology to help understand of actually "how close", this family folklore story, was to the Kelly Gang. Because this story, was loosley written about, it didn't actually prove confirmation of the connection, but as it was told verbally, you could interpret it that it had more truth than fiction.

The story centres around James Thompson Hatch and his wife Mary Ann Jane (nee Daley).
Both of them are 1st Gen Australian's to Irish Parents and are 3rd GGParents to me. The link is from my Father's Paternal Grandmother - Kathleen T Sheehan - and they are her Maternal Grandparents.

Marion Warman's 1981 book on the "Hatch Family in Australia" depicts a James Thompson Hatch - 5th child of Robert Hatch and Mary Thompson (originally from Co. Down, Ireland).
My late Great Aunt - Sheila Tattersall (nee Fitzgerald) contributed to this book (photo's and details) and her verbal stories of this event, have prompted this blog.
Part of this blog, was to correct or help correct, a more established factual story, on this whole link to the Kelly's. The initial folklore that was passed down, was misinterpreted. It was thought that the Canberra district "Ginninderra" Blacksmith Shop, was the actual BlackSmith Shop, where the Kelly's Horses were shod. I found out later that this was incorrect information (as the family believed it), as I descibe below. What sent alarm bells off, during the research, was that I couldn't find details of the Kelly's ever going to the Canberra district.

James T Hatch was born 1837 in Goulburn, NSW.
James married Mary Jane Daley in 1860 at Tumut, NSW. Mary was about 15 when she married.
James worked as a Blacksmith, in around the Ginnindera area (Northern Suburb of  Canberra, ACT).

He was the first blacksmith in Ginninderra and worked in a shed (that still remains today), beside the Barton Highway.

James then moved from Ginninderra to the Albury/Wodonga area, sometime in the late 1860’s/early 1870’s. There he was still trading as a Blacksmith, but had some issues with payments and had to sell off his Blacksmith business.
He also somewhat owned or built the Terminus Hotel in Wodonga for a while and then sold that off.
I don’t know how much Blacksmithing he was doing during these days of the hotel.  I think his Blacksmith was liquidated, but I am not sure what caused the liquidation, I’d expect maybe too much expenses (says “forced sale”)??

It is plausible to say at this point, that in 1870s, that the Hatch's, may have crossed paths with the Kelly's prior to the 1879 incident. The 2 families were with in 50-75 Km's of each other.

This is just a thought, due to the fact that the 2 family's have travel history around this area. 

The Hatch Family moved from Wodonga to Urana. I don’t know exactly when, but they were in Wodonga till atleast 1875. But in 1879, we see the family living in Urana 2-3 weeks before the great robbery. Daughter Sophia - of James Thompson Hatch had 2 court proceedings against her from her Father. It was a Family tiff over clothing, he (James) thought it was his.
But the dating of the documents, clearly shows the family was in Urana at the exact moment, well just prior to the robbery.
These are the only known news reports of the family placed in Urana. There is no known details from other sources, depicting if James was Blacksmithing around the Urana/Jerilderie district at this time (or for the fact, many years).
I can only presume at the moment, that he only did what he knew best.

The only source of where or what happened with the Kelly’s and the plausible link to James Thompson Hatch, was his son’s account – James Thompson Hatch Jnr.
James Jnr's - 1957 obituary makes the statement (below).
Though, I argue the point of was it “Jerilderie” or “Urana”, where the shop was? And was his Father only working there, or did he have an actual shop in either town. As certain details from other sources/historian's suggest there was no noted Hatch family involvement in Jerilderie (or Urana for that matter). I am of the thinking that James Jnr thought his Father owned the shop, when he only just worked there. And who was the informant that was giving the details on Jnr's obituary?

Though what is confusing, is to what report is correct about the Kelly’s passing through Urana. Initially I thought there was an intention to go to Urana and maybe rob it after Jerilderie, but a few days later in the reports mention that they passed through Urana 3 days before the robbery (and they weren’t noticed). It was mentioned by Kelly, whilst holding up the bank in Jerilderie, to “rob Urana and not to send word”, but I don’t know if he was actually going to do it - rob it beforehand and or was this just a decoy? As a rider was sent from Jerilderie to Urana to warn the town, before the Kelly’s got there.

From Urana, the Hatch’s moved North a few hundred Km’s and were Blacksmithing there until James Snr died – ironically from heat exhaustion. It was 50 deg C in the shade, whilst working.
So I know that James Snr was Blacksmithing before Urana and after it, but cannot confirm with details up to this point in time, what they were doing in Urana (or Jerliderie) and if James T Hatch Snr did actually "Shod Kelly's Horses" as reported. But it does leave the impression that the story holds true, that they were in the area during the great 1879 Robbery and James Snr was a Blacksmith during this era. We are only going off an Obituary, for that account and have no backup documentation to show the connection. Great story to research though.

The research continues

 Click here for a great website to use for the Kelly Gang's timeline

 Kelly House in Beveridge, Victoria (2016)

   James T Hatch & wife Mary Daley                             James T Hatch Snr & James T Hatch Jnr
              (circa after 1860)                                                                    (circa 1890-1896)

 

       The story that has inspired my thoughts for this blog      
(depicted by the Hatch Family Book)
 

      

  

                                            Details of Blacksmith insolvency in Wodonga
                                           (8th Apr 1875 -  Ovens and Murray Advertiser)

 

James Hatch vs Dau. Sophia Hatch - 3 weeks before the robbery
  (15th Jan 1879 - Wagga Wagga Express)

                               

                                  Details again of the court case of James Hatch and Dau. Sophia
                                             (29th Jan 1879 - Wagga Wagga Express)

 

 James T Hatch Jnr's 1957 Obituary
The Jerilderie Shop details are yet to be found
(13th Sep 1957 - Western Herald (Bourke NSW)

 

 Details (highlighted) listed in a News Report
(Date in image - Sydney Morning Herald)

The details of Urana and the Kelly's
"Friday" as pointed out  - is the 7th of Feb.

The 8th of Feb is where the Kelly's arrived in Jerilderie

So did the Kelly's actually arrived in Urana before Jerilderie? 

(13th Feb 1879 -  Ovens and Murray Advertiser)

A depiction of travelled places and the Hatch Family's timeline

Read More

36. Learning of Culture - Get some!

Culture - Learn it.

I haven't posted a blog for a little while, I had been trying to understand something about myself.
Learning a culture, of a distant land that we were once a part of. The only thing that gives me any insight to culture, apart from talking to the Irish, is letters and family paperwork, that directly replicates, what history has told. But with culture, comes heartache of somesort to the Irish.
Part of below, can be viewed as a "controversial" post, on learning what culture is.
But the whole idea of this post, is to explain, my opinions and outcomes after learning both sides of the culture's and what I am part of.

Family documents, opinions from other people (word of mouth and documented paperwork) and what history has been documented, gives or teaches me about the culture of the Irish.
The only thing missing, is being there in person to experience what I have learned.

In all the years I've studied on my family lines, one part that I keep trying to find, is Culture.
Culture, is a missing component to the family stories.
Hoping culture can teach or help me "tell a story" on why things happened. And as I've found out, you have to see both sides of a story to learn "Culture" - regardless if it touches on stirring the pot. And Ireland carries "culture" with a heavy heart. You wouldn't extract a true culture or a true enough answer from someone without, poking or prodding the English/Irish debate or to do with the rebellions or like of.
And what has intrigued me after watching a video today of certain 1916 events, is that you can't have a civil conversation about it, without a certain degree of angst coming up. This is where you find real culture.

Dad's side has been here in Australia from 1842 onwards, Mum's around mid 1850's.
Majority of both sides, had just missed the full effects of the Famine - both from Famine and Disease, but also escaped the Governmental idealogies of how they dealt with the Famine afterwards.
(I am so glad they missed both sides of it) But Mum's side did have connections to the after effects with the Famine (the handling of the landed estates and absentee landlord issue).

This Irish "Culture" - appears on both my family lines in Ireland. Mum's direct Maternal Protestant lineage clashes with a Catholic family, who had indirect "Nationalistic" tendancies. Dad's side carries a surname of domination of the Irish with Strongbow and later times they swap sides to fight against the English, but also carries a very heavy genetic connection to the deep South West territory of Ireland. Genetics have allowed me to explore a much more native connection to South Western Ireland than once thought. I am of the opinion, that we are "Gaelicised Normans" to Limerick, with some degree of confidence.
 
Also, I am in belief, that Dad's Maternal line carries a very strong North Irish/Gallowglass linked lineage through his Co.Cork Gallagher line. It is messing my thoughts up with his direct ancient Paternal lineage to Cork City / Co.Cork / Limerick. As 2 plausible Gallowglass families (McDonald and Calhoun clans) sit very close to our very defined - direct Paternal line in Limerick around the Norman Invasion period. These clans intersect with the Collins/ODonovan's of Limerick.

But what I found most interesting and profounding on both sides, is that many traditions, values or idealogies, were never passed down through the generations, since they left Ireland. I have tried to extract thoughts through the family, but it seems we lost most of our Irish culture in today's world.
My Grandfather never really talked about our Irish roots, but his Sister did. In the 60's and 70's, Dad's family tried to trace our roots, but hit quite a few dead ends with our Fitzgerald line. But we did have a hit with Dad's Paternal Grandmother's "Hatch" line (possible Cromwellian Planter family) and a Cork native Irish Sheehan line. But because the Fitzgerald lineage info, was not found or nothing of interest beyond late 1700's- Early 1800's, this may have forced them in to giving up "looking" for them?

Learning about Mum's Maternal Persse line (based on reasearch from Lady Gregory), I decided to finally approach the 1916 events in Ireland - The Easter Rising.
Simply, because I didn't know anything about it, but part of me was also lost in "why" do I need to learn of this event. I had put this to the side, mainly because I had no direct family involvement in this cause. But I found out later, how messy 1916 was and how it directly had an effect in Australia.
Lady Gregory's life, her comments and other people's perception of what happened is quite contrasting. Gregory came from a Protestant life, but around the 1916 events, her mind was filled with a lot of thoughts on siding with the martyr's. This is one main reason that inspired me to learn "why would someone do that". What changed her views? Was it Culture?
As an example, my Maternal MacNevin line, it has an Catholic Irish man becoming a Judge/Coroner in the Sydney and he judged everyone, without prejudice - regardless if you were Catholic or a Protestant in his court.

I recently attended a Irish International Conference in Melbourne, a few months ago, based upon the "Australian Perspective" of the 1916 Easter Rising. I went into this conference, with a completely open and an unbiased mind. I wanted to learn the details of it, without prejudice.

Even though I knew a lot of what I was going to learn, was "way over my head", I did it for myself to learn that word again - culture. I wanted to put myself in both shoes to understand what drove both sides into the awful mess and what inspired Yeates to write (or finish off ) his "A Terrible Beauty is Born".
This 2 day conference, opened my eyes to a very messy and complex insurrection that had far wider implications, than just taking the GPO.

Half a world away, it deeply and directly affected Australia and it created an after-effect too.
It split the views of Australian's and the Irish Immigrants, with Empire's strangehold hold with WW1.
It created political division and 2 referendums within the confines of this Southern land.
Parliament asked it's population to vote on a decison, it couldn't answer for itself.
Australia's population back then, had a lot of Irish in it. Part of which was Catholic.
Melbourne Archbishop - Dr Mannix split the Irish community on terms and differences he had, on what he called a "Trade War" (WW1). The complexity of this whole era, was compounded when the Australian Irish Catholic community, was asked to vote on participation via conscription with The Empire in WW1.
Dr Mannix was a changed man after the 1916 executions and he asked the Catholic's to vote "no" to conscription, simply because "Australia came first and the Empire second".
(applies to the context with the English vs Irish debate).

There was also an "after effect" to the above happenings. In the 1916 conference, it was found that quite a percentage of Australian born children, to Irish Catholic parents (after 1880), became radicalised about the Republic in Ireland.
Seinn Feinism or the likes of, was apparent and radicalised men were inciting "republicanism" within Australia. Some of which were jailed and known as the "Darlinghurst Seven".

Looking back on what I had learnt, I didn't agree with the insurrection, neither did the "majority" of Ireland. But I do agree on upholding a forced debate on National identity. Whether it be a republic or home rule.
Australia is in a Home Rule situation, but a republic discussion has popped up from time to time, but has been squashed everytime of it's appearance.
The problem about the debate issue, is that the British nature of debating will almost win hands down. And why we have this contiunal lingering problem. If the Irish want to beat them, you will have to enter a debate on their soil, on their terms and nail every part of the debate - including on not "selling out". But with debates, the only way to win, is to comprimise, so it's a catch 22 which way you go.
Collins was out-debated, because of the "bloodshed that will ensue", if he didn't agree to the English.
I would argue, if he had the attributes of a top barrister or a law maker, the outcome would have been different, but would have had some sort of bloodshed.
If Daniel O'Connell hadn't of killed John D'Esterre, would things have been different? It changed his views on bloodshed vs political gain (but there again, O'Connell sold out to the Whigs later in his political life).

The greatest part of learning about the events of 1916, is how many innocent people were killed (reports of how many vary, but lets point in the direction of about 400).
Because of a "statement" that the insurrection had to make, it's voice came at the price of the innocent people. And what hurt the most, whether the British or Irish killed them, was the death's of the innocent, that they were brushed underneath the carpet, like as if they didn't care. It completely struck a chord with me.
Even though I haven't read "everything" of Lady Gregory's views, I drew a thought to atleast understand if atleast she mentioned or recognised the innocent deaths. She did list the deaths in her writings, but still was not made to be a prominent issue of the cause.

Regardless of what I had written above, the key to understanding both sides, is their culture's.
And I am glad that I had the opportunity to understand them and the 1916 Easter Rising.

Get some culture and learn from it.

Read More